I just added a new paragraph. I forgot to write about something really important! "One obvious first task is to find the name for this Substack. We didn’t want to use cultural stereotypes like “panda”, “dragon”, or “forbidden city”, but wanted something edgier and quirkier, something that might not make sense at first but would be easy to remember. I believe in the end, it was my idea to translate Jiang Jiang’s Chinese name directly: 姜Ginger, 江River. We all loved this idea, but I remember JJ was hesitant for a few days. He was a bit afraid to make this project too personal. After all, he was still a Xinhua journalist. There might be unknown risks in the future. But in the end, he gave this name his full blessing."
Thank you for this. I've been so busy with work and personal stuff over the last year that I've had much less time to read your work, and even less to reply, but I appreciate your sharing all of this with us. Truthfully, I think we can learn from anything regardless of the source, but knowing the source's background is certainly important. (I don't write formally about the US military, for instance, but should I make a statement about the US military, I'll add that I'm a veteran, just so everyone is aware of the experience that informs my statement, even though I'm no longer affiliated with the military in any capacity.) I've always perceived you as a Chinese person with experience in the West who thinks that China is basically doing pretty well, even if you'd like to see some changes- and I value that perspective. I'm sure if I ever spent time in Chinese online spaces, I'd find myself defending my country even more vigorously than you do on here- even though I firmly believe that the greatest threats to the well-being of my country and its people are currently running the country, much to my chagrin. I wish we could spend more time talking (ie, 美国人 and 中国人, just as people and not representatives of our governments, media, or any other entities); it's so easy to find common ground with another human if we stop treating each other as enemies.
I gotta say I personally really do have so many complaints with the so-called tizhi, or China’s state-owned system, and I genuinely can't get along with a high percentage of the people in it. But Jiang Jiang and the other names mentioned in that original article are certainly not those kinds of people.
In general, I hate any kind of exploitation of individuality to fulfill a goal (especially if it's a political one; hate politics), like using a persuasive and seemingly logical tone to make it a general case that all folks in the system or still in mainland China are soulless puppets forced to speak for the party.
I do respect the media studio that's trying to be like China's Township and Village Enterprises of the 1980s, but I just feel bad that the realities are difficult for them in the current climate (both from within China and from the external world).
Thank you Robert. A very well thought out, clear, considered response to "Whipling". Funny how the most censored - only censored - thing you wrote was censored by the NYT. This bit was particularly humourous "I can easily spot these kinds of Red Guard tactics." (from none other, it seems, than Mr 'Whipling' !) No affiliations, no funding, for the record, but over here in Aus, writers and authors are withdrawing from writing festivals because the festival organisers have adopted a pro-genocide approach to what can be said and what can't be said at such festivals. Now that is open, in-ya-face, out and out censorship. In Australia!
Sean Haines also worked for state media. As foreigners who were in the system, we may see it a little differently to our former Chinese colleagues. I mean, I hope that we can respect each other’s opinions & engage respectfully — and I feel as though for the most part, people have. And there is no “correct” perspective. We all come at things from different angles, circumstances, and backgrounds.
I consider both Sean Haines and JJ as friends. Along with a couple of other notable newsletter writers. I haven’t kept in touch as frequently with JJ in recent times, but I still read his stuff.
I actually can see where both of you are coming from. I also once had a newsletter (on Revue, a platform that X killed).
I used it as a low-key way to try and string together different segments from different shows that I hosted/produced on a single topic, pointing out the key pieces of information in each, and then adding details that didn’t make it to broadcast. Each day I presented at least three programs, so it was easier to spread out some of the more “sensitive” points across multiple shows, and then present them together as a newsletter to try and give as much of the full story as possible.
I didn’t have a huge following, but I did get good feedback from the people who did subscribe. I didn’t ask permission to write it, and was never asked about it. And I used my own time (mostly late at night) to write them. So I know from my own personal experience as a former state media worker, there are people out there doing this kind of thing in good faith.
So yes, credit should go to the people who act first and ask for forgiveness/permission later. It takes some courage, especially in China. But we do also need to be aware of tightening control over information in China, and be aware that while some newsletters start organically, they don’t always stay that way long-term.
I still consume Chinese media (in moderation), and there are Chinese journalists in the system who I do admire, especially for how they have maintained professionalism and integrity, even when the system is mostly anything but at the moment.
And the taking credit thing — yep, I’ve been there & done that. It really is frustrating when people write “work reports” and include things that you have done, independently, outside of work, as part of their “achievements”.
But whenever I started something organically outside of work (social media pages, etc.), as soon as there was even a whisper of leadership/colleagues wanting to co-opt it, or impose restrictions, I shut them down — as in just stop posting.
I think the key is to keep moving. New platforms, new media formats. Jump in before decision makers even understand the concept, do as much as you can while you can, and then when attempts are made to influence what you are working on, walk away.
But that is just me, and my situation is entirely different as a non-Chinese person formerly within the state media 体制 because I had less skin in the game.
I also think we should refrain from describing another’s opinion as an “attack”. So many things have been written about me in the past that just weren’t true. But rather than argue back, I try to just let my work and actions speak for themselves.
So, I am looking forward to reading more from Sean and JJ, and also Zichen. Because we all have a couple of pieces, and without them all, we could never solve the puzzle to see the big picture. Have a good one!
Yep, YouTube is pushing anti-China propaganda to me again. This time it's a video made by a white guy who claims to be an "expert on China with over a decade of research." When he talked about Taiwan, he pulled out a map of China—of course one that excluded Taiwan Island. But get this—it didn't even include Hainan Island! And he has over 10 million followers.
I might have gotten angry about this before, but now I just find it laughable. What's there to even explain? If they want to stay stupid, let them be stupid. I'm not going to waste my breath.
There's the Biden China-bounty of $1.6 billion to trash China still up for grabs, on top of the usual Pentagon budget. So off they trot, fully lubed-up, dumpster diving for whatever detritus will satisfy the hawks.
I can unequivocally tell you that in Sean’s case, this is absolutely not the case. And comments like this do not help foster communication, they just add to division.
There seems to be a small industry on X, Substack, etc, of former expat residents of China, who having failed over there, have returned home and are determined not only to find a rationalization for their failure, but have a large enough ego to think their efforts can trip up a behemoth. I suspect they are getting a bit more help than ¢5 (毛） from US/UK/EU state and NGO actors, but not enough to live comfortably so the rage is kept hot.
I think the CCP's system, really XJP's, has made it so difficult for Lung de Chuan Ren and Lao Wai to connect on a deep and meaningful basis. Xi's Doc#9 set the tone and it's gotten worse every year since then. Many ethnic Chinese on Substack have a disclaimer - "I don't comment on elite politics" - this prompts my question "what else is there to talk about?"
I used to work in China and had many bschool friends in the country, but it started to dawn on me association with me might cause them problems.
Stateside, a client once hired me and a Chinese national as a kind of advisory team on a project. As usual, we had a productive and super friendly time working together. Then my Chinese colleague told me he/she had to work all weekend on a report for a Chinese gov't bureau connected to the industry we were working on. I suggested declining that assignment and was told that was not an option. Naturally this made me question the extent to which I wanted to slip within the watchful gaze of Chinese big brother. This is one story, unfortunately I have many like this.
I've thought about all this plenty over the past 8 years and it seems someone in China rigged a covert system to run alongside a 'world order' system back in the late 1990s around the time China joined WTO. I'll stop there, but will add it's encouraging to see courageous Chinese like Zhang Youxia and Liu Yuan standing up to the clique that put the nefarious, covert system in place.
From your article here and the Aug 2022 article you linked, it's clear you are authentic. However, it seems good people in China have to walk a tightrope in their public writing, instead of taking a nice stroll along a paved sidewalk.
Consider that all the trauma and covert BS I sense in China began with a jealous and paranoid Mao attacking a talented and benevolent Liu Xiaoqi. Torturing him to death while concealing his identity from those ordered to torture him. Then evicting his family from Zhongnanhai making them homeless and concealing his death from them for two years. Arresting his brilliant and gorgeous wife and locking her up for twelve years. Then writing propaganda articles about her first action upon release to pay homage to Mao and the shrill Jiang Qiang. Now, Liu Yuan, the son of this famous couple has been (along with Zhang Youxia) the brave one to help put Xi Jinping (aka Mao wannabe) in check. What poetic justice.
If the covert specialists in the CCP are brought to justice and Liu Yuan puts together new leadership, China will turn a new page and begin to repair after another ruinous period of fearful and paranoid rule from an autocrat, the same as his father Liu Xiaoqi did in the early in 1960s. I hope and pray.
China has 5,000 years of history in part due to the Mandate of Heaven tenant that holds the ruler must work for the benefit of the Chinese people and when they don't their tenure comes to an end.
Hi MC. I may be going a bit overboard in defending Sean here (I’m sure he is more than capable of doing that for himself).
But I can say, honestly, that Sean does appreciate many things about China. Being critical of Chinese state media (whether justified or not, and I am not getting into that debate because I think that as someone who has worked in state media, he is justified in giving an opinion) doesn’t mean he hates everything about China.
This isn’t a black-and-white world. I am also quite critical of Chinese state media — I worked within it for 12 years, and saw firsthand how things evolved. But I still love many things about China — the people, the culture, the food, the language, the music…
So, please don’t make assumptions about people just because they may not be on the same “team” as you. We are all actually on one big team, just a colony of ants on a rock rotating around a massive ball of fire within a vast universe.
I just added a new paragraph. I forgot to write about something really important! "One obvious first task is to find the name for this Substack. We didn’t want to use cultural stereotypes like “panda”, “dragon”, or “forbidden city”, but wanted something edgier and quirkier, something that might not make sense at first but would be easy to remember. I believe in the end, it was my idea to translate Jiang Jiang’s Chinese name directly: 姜Ginger, 江River. We all loved this idea, but I remember JJ was hesitant for a few days. He was a bit afraid to make this project too personal. After all, he was still a Xinhua journalist. There might be unknown risks in the future. But in the end, he gave this name his full blessing."
Thank you for this. I've been so busy with work and personal stuff over the last year that I've had much less time to read your work, and even less to reply, but I appreciate your sharing all of this with us. Truthfully, I think we can learn from anything regardless of the source, but knowing the source's background is certainly important. (I don't write formally about the US military, for instance, but should I make a statement about the US military, I'll add that I'm a veteran, just so everyone is aware of the experience that informs my statement, even though I'm no longer affiliated with the military in any capacity.) I've always perceived you as a Chinese person with experience in the West who thinks that China is basically doing pretty well, even if you'd like to see some changes- and I value that perspective. I'm sure if I ever spent time in Chinese online spaces, I'd find myself defending my country even more vigorously than you do on here- even though I firmly believe that the greatest threats to the well-being of my country and its people are currently running the country, much to my chagrin. I wish we could spend more time talking (ie, 美国人 and 中国人, just as people and not representatives of our governments, media, or any other entities); it's so easy to find common ground with another human if we stop treating each other as enemies.
I gotta say I personally really do have so many complaints with the so-called tizhi, or China’s state-owned system, and I genuinely can't get along with a high percentage of the people in it. But Jiang Jiang and the other names mentioned in that original article are certainly not those kinds of people.
In general, I hate any kind of exploitation of individuality to fulfill a goal (especially if it's a political one; hate politics), like using a persuasive and seemingly logical tone to make it a general case that all folks in the system or still in mainland China are soulless puppets forced to speak for the party.
I do respect the media studio that's trying to be like China's Township and Village Enterprises of the 1980s, but I just feel bad that the realities are difficult for them in the current climate (both from within China and from the external world).
Thank you Robert. A very well thought out, clear, considered response to "Whipling". Funny how the most censored - only censored - thing you wrote was censored by the NYT. This bit was particularly humourous "I can easily spot these kinds of Red Guard tactics." (from none other, it seems, than Mr 'Whipling' !) No affiliations, no funding, for the record, but over here in Aus, writers and authors are withdrawing from writing festivals because the festival organisers have adopted a pro-genocide approach to what can be said and what can't be said at such festivals. Now that is open, in-ya-face, out and out censorship. In Australia!
Sean Haines also worked for state media. As foreigners who were in the system, we may see it a little differently to our former Chinese colleagues. I mean, I hope that we can respect each other’s opinions & engage respectfully — and I feel as though for the most part, people have. And there is no “correct” perspective. We all come at things from different angles, circumstances, and backgrounds.
Thanks very interesting background. It seems you are part of something historic here! Best wishes!
I consider both Sean Haines and JJ as friends. Along with a couple of other notable newsletter writers. I haven’t kept in touch as frequently with JJ in recent times, but I still read his stuff.
I actually can see where both of you are coming from. I also once had a newsletter (on Revue, a platform that X killed).
I used it as a low-key way to try and string together different segments from different shows that I hosted/produced on a single topic, pointing out the key pieces of information in each, and then adding details that didn’t make it to broadcast. Each day I presented at least three programs, so it was easier to spread out some of the more “sensitive” points across multiple shows, and then present them together as a newsletter to try and give as much of the full story as possible.
I didn’t have a huge following, but I did get good feedback from the people who did subscribe. I didn’t ask permission to write it, and was never asked about it. And I used my own time (mostly late at night) to write them. So I know from my own personal experience as a former state media worker, there are people out there doing this kind of thing in good faith.
So yes, credit should go to the people who act first and ask for forgiveness/permission later. It takes some courage, especially in China. But we do also need to be aware of tightening control over information in China, and be aware that while some newsletters start organically, they don’t always stay that way long-term.
I still consume Chinese media (in moderation), and there are Chinese journalists in the system who I do admire, especially for how they have maintained professionalism and integrity, even when the system is mostly anything but at the moment.
And the taking credit thing — yep, I’ve been there & done that. It really is frustrating when people write “work reports” and include things that you have done, independently, outside of work, as part of their “achievements”.
But whenever I started something organically outside of work (social media pages, etc.), as soon as there was even a whisper of leadership/colleagues wanting to co-opt it, or impose restrictions, I shut them down — as in just stop posting.
I think the key is to keep moving. New platforms, new media formats. Jump in before decision makers even understand the concept, do as much as you can while you can, and then when attempts are made to influence what you are working on, walk away.
But that is just me, and my situation is entirely different as a non-Chinese person formerly within the state media 体制 because I had less skin in the game.
I also think we should refrain from describing another’s opinion as an “attack”. So many things have been written about me in the past that just weren’t true. But rather than argue back, I try to just let my work and actions speak for themselves.
So, I am looking forward to reading more from Sean and JJ, and also Zichen. Because we all have a couple of pieces, and without them all, we could never solve the puzzle to see the big picture. Have a good one!
So, to summarize...
Don't believe everything you read on the internet...(?)
I didn't get the enflamed response to the Whipling article. It read like someone chewing more than they could bite off.
Robert: thank you for this insightful essay.
Yep, YouTube is pushing anti-China propaganda to me again. This time it's a video made by a white guy who claims to be an "expert on China with over a decade of research." When he talked about Taiwan, he pulled out a map of China—of course one that excluded Taiwan Island. But get this—it didn't even include Hainan Island! And he has over 10 million followers.
I might have gotten angry about this before, but now I just find it laughable. What's there to even explain? If they want to stay stupid, let them be stupid. I'm not going to waste my breath.
There's the Biden China-bounty of $1.6 billion to trash China still up for grabs, on top of the usual Pentagon budget. So off they trot, fully lubed-up, dumpster diving for whatever detritus will satisfy the hawks.
I can unequivocally tell you that in Sean’s case, this is absolutely not the case. And comments like this do not help foster communication, they just add to division.
There seems to be a small industry on X, Substack, etc, of former expat residents of China, who having failed over there, have returned home and are determined not only to find a rationalization for their failure, but have a large enough ego to think their efforts can trip up a behemoth. I suspect they are getting a bit more help than ¢5 (毛） from US/UK/EU state and NGO actors, but not enough to live comfortably so the rage is kept hot.
I think the CCP's system, really XJP's, has made it so difficult for Lung de Chuan Ren and Lao Wai to connect on a deep and meaningful basis. Xi's Doc#9 set the tone and it's gotten worse every year since then. Many ethnic Chinese on Substack have a disclaimer - "I don't comment on elite politics" - this prompts my question "what else is there to talk about?"
I used to work in China and had many bschool friends in the country, but it started to dawn on me association with me might cause them problems.
Stateside, a client once hired me and a Chinese national as a kind of advisory team on a project. As usual, we had a productive and super friendly time working together. Then my Chinese colleague told me he/she had to work all weekend on a report for a Chinese gov't bureau connected to the industry we were working on. I suggested declining that assignment and was told that was not an option. Naturally this made me question the extent to which I wanted to slip within the watchful gaze of Chinese big brother. This is one story, unfortunately I have many like this.
I've thought about all this plenty over the past 8 years and it seems someone in China rigged a covert system to run alongside a 'world order' system back in the late 1990s around the time China joined WTO. I'll stop there, but will add it's encouraging to see courageous Chinese like Zhang Youxia and Liu Yuan standing up to the clique that put the nefarious, covert system in place.
From your article here and the Aug 2022 article you linked, it's clear you are authentic. However, it seems good people in China have to walk a tightrope in their public writing, instead of taking a nice stroll along a paved sidewalk.
Consider that all the trauma and covert BS I sense in China began with a jealous and paranoid Mao attacking a talented and benevolent Liu Xiaoqi. Torturing him to death while concealing his identity from those ordered to torture him. Then evicting his family from Zhongnanhai making them homeless and concealing his death from them for two years. Arresting his brilliant and gorgeous wife and locking her up for twelve years. Then writing propaganda articles about her first action upon release to pay homage to Mao and the shrill Jiang Qiang. Now, Liu Yuan, the son of this famous couple has been (along with Zhang Youxia) the brave one to help put Xi Jinping (aka Mao wannabe) in check. What poetic justice.
If the covert specialists in the CCP are brought to justice and Liu Yuan puts together new leadership, China will turn a new page and begin to repair after another ruinous period of fearful and paranoid rule from an autocrat, the same as his father Liu Xiaoqi did in the early in 1960s. I hope and pray.
China has 5,000 years of history in part due to the Mandate of Heaven tenant that holds the ruler must work for the benefit of the Chinese people and when they don't their tenure comes to an end.
Also, I wonder how much we don’t know about the influence that the CIA/MI6 exerts on the so called “independent media” in the West.
This Whipling dude is your typical arrogant and strangely insecure anglo who sees nothing good about China.
Hi MC. I may be going a bit overboard in defending Sean here (I’m sure he is more than capable of doing that for himself).
But I can say, honestly, that Sean does appreciate many things about China. Being critical of Chinese state media (whether justified or not, and I am not getting into that debate because I think that as someone who has worked in state media, he is justified in giving an opinion) doesn’t mean he hates everything about China.
This isn’t a black-and-white world. I am also quite critical of Chinese state media — I worked within it for 12 years, and saw firsthand how things evolved. But I still love many things about China — the people, the culture, the food, the language, the music…
So, please don’t make assumptions about people just because they may not be on the same “team” as you. We are all actually on one big team, just a colony of ants on a rock rotating around a massive ball of fire within a vast universe.