I was and is an Alibaba shareholder when the IPO was cancelled. My own view was that China did foreign investors a favour by cancelling the Ant IPO, vs letting the IPO go ahead at an undoubtedly inflated price. Also, I personally found Ma’s speech somewhat arrogant, about how financial regulation was inapplicable to fintech. I was waiting for him to provide a reasoned explanation how the regulations could be improved. In the end he offered no reasoned argument, and I can only conclude that he had no basis for the claim. Financial bubbles have plagued even sophisticated economies since the Dutch Tulip bubble and it’s unlikely that no regulation is needed at all.
BTW, the wealthy will always feel “persecuted”. It’s hard for them to understand there is a difference between social goals and private interests. The wealthy conflate the two, thinking that any restraint on their pursuit of financial wealth is illegitimate.
Any particular speech that you have in mind? Send me a link so I can read and form a view. Jack Ma himself may be a modest man, and it was just the speech that I found arrogant. It’s possible one of President Xi’s speech may also come across as arrogant, so let me know which one you have in mind!
There was another event, mostly forgotten that helped precipitate his downfall. About a week before his ill fated speech, someone put a poll up on Weibo asking who the top 10 individuals had the most respect in China. Jack Ma was #1 by a long shot, followed by Wang Jianling, a couple other business people I forget, and guess who wasn't even in the list? Big Daddy Xi. The poll lasted about 1 hour and was taken down and all mention of it scrubbed. Someone didn't like a mere business person upstaging him in popularity.
Thank you, Robert. I've often been asked about Jack Ma, your article is a much more articulate and fact packed explanation and will save me much grief in the future.
Pretty good. I mentioned "the poll" the other day, and now I remember the other thing that came right before his "speech" disaster....which was also quickly evaporated.
Ma was getting interviewed by some Western media mopes, and they kept drilling him on his Party member status. He said, paraphrased pretty close because i lost the original......"You all focus so much on the Party. I can be a member of the Party, but one doesn't have to be married to the Party".
It disappeared almost as soon as it appeared, but it wasn't missed by the folks that count. In Xi's world, you goddamn better understand that you ARE married to the Party.
It's amazing that Ma was so sharp, and yet so dense.
I've always thought about it as he crossed a moral or ethical red line with his Antgroup speech and intended business practices. As a comparison, in Sweden/Europe around 2006, businesses started to offer something called "sms-loan", which was based on quick and easy borrowing without or with very minimal credit checks. Within minutes of sending an SMS you would have the money in your account. The idea was to get people in dept and get as much money as possible from them, with misleading information about actual costs. The interest rates for these loans were through the roof, in some instances more than 1000% percent! It took many years for this to get properly regulated, during which these companies got filthy rich and lots of people were ending in personal bankruptcy. My perhaps flawed understanding is that Jack Ma wanted to do something similar and by doing so, he would cross a red line. During the period that Jack Ma rose to fame and wealth, companies (and individuals) were allowed to become filthy rich with the intention of building up the private part of the economy, under the understanding that those companies would contribute back to the betterment of society. Intentionally getting people in dept and ruin them financially would violate that understanding. I might mix up the timeline, but as I recall there were also some friction around Taobao related to logistics, where individual logistics companies were pushed out in favour of Alibabas own logistics?, there by taking a bigger piece of the cake? There are probably several aspects to it besides greed, taking politics and power into account as well. But please correct me if I got the above wrong. Thanks for a great article.
I was and is an Alibaba shareholder when the IPO was cancelled. My own view was that China did foreign investors a favour by cancelling the Ant IPO, vs letting the IPO go ahead at an undoubtedly inflated price. Also, I personally found Ma’s speech somewhat arrogant, about how financial regulation was inapplicable to fintech. I was waiting for him to provide a reasoned explanation how the regulations could be improved. In the end he offered no reasoned argument, and I can only conclude that he had no basis for the claim. Financial bubbles have plagued even sophisticated economies since the Dutch Tulip bubble and it’s unlikely that no regulation is needed at all.
BTW, the wealthy will always feel “persecuted”. It’s hard for them to understand there is a difference between social goals and private interests. The wealthy conflate the two, thinking that any restraint on their pursuit of financial wealth is illegitimate.
Do you also find Xi Jinping's speeches arrogant or not?
Any particular speech that you have in mind? Send me a link so I can read and form a view. Jack Ma himself may be a modest man, and it was just the speech that I found arrogant. It’s possible one of President Xi’s speech may also come across as arrogant, so let me know which one you have in mind!
There was another event, mostly forgotten that helped precipitate his downfall. About a week before his ill fated speech, someone put a poll up on Weibo asking who the top 10 individuals had the most respect in China. Jack Ma was #1 by a long shot, followed by Wang Jianling, a couple other business people I forget, and guess who wasn't even in the list? Big Daddy Xi. The poll lasted about 1 hour and was taken down and all mention of it scrubbed. Someone didn't like a mere business person upstaging him in popularity.
Best summary of the Jack Ma saga I have read. Great work
Thanks!
I know that building in your profile. The old slaughterhouse in Yangpu. Great pic!
"Make it easy to do business in the world"
Google translate says that this is what Jack Ma's slogan means. Do you agree?
Literally it translates as: Make no business difficult to make under the heaven
Agree, but it missed the daring flair. So i really didn’t know how to translate it properly. Haha
Any proof on the statement that he wasnt in prison or house arrest?
Any proof he was?
Thank you, Robert. I've often been asked about Jack Ma, your article is a much more articulate and fact packed explanation and will save me much grief in the future.
Yes, enlightening. But has he not already paid the price. Can he be allowed back into the fold like Deng Xiaoping.
Excellent analysis!
Pretty good. I mentioned "the poll" the other day, and now I remember the other thing that came right before his "speech" disaster....which was also quickly evaporated.
Ma was getting interviewed by some Western media mopes, and they kept drilling him on his Party member status. He said, paraphrased pretty close because i lost the original......"You all focus so much on the Party. I can be a member of the Party, but one doesn't have to be married to the Party".
It disappeared almost as soon as it appeared, but it wasn't missed by the folks that count. In Xi's world, you goddamn better understand that you ARE married to the Party.
It's amazing that Ma was so sharp, and yet so dense.
I've always thought about it as he crossed a moral or ethical red line with his Antgroup speech and intended business practices. As a comparison, in Sweden/Europe around 2006, businesses started to offer something called "sms-loan", which was based on quick and easy borrowing without or with very minimal credit checks. Within minutes of sending an SMS you would have the money in your account. The idea was to get people in dept and get as much money as possible from them, with misleading information about actual costs. The interest rates for these loans were through the roof, in some instances more than 1000% percent! It took many years for this to get properly regulated, during which these companies got filthy rich and lots of people were ending in personal bankruptcy. My perhaps flawed understanding is that Jack Ma wanted to do something similar and by doing so, he would cross a red line. During the period that Jack Ma rose to fame and wealth, companies (and individuals) were allowed to become filthy rich with the intention of building up the private part of the economy, under the understanding that those companies would contribute back to the betterment of society. Intentionally getting people in dept and ruin them financially would violate that understanding. I might mix up the timeline, but as I recall there were also some friction around Taobao related to logistics, where individual logistics companies were pushed out in favour of Alibabas own logistics?, there by taking a bigger piece of the cake? There are probably several aspects to it besides greed, taking politics and power into account as well. But please correct me if I got the above wrong. Thanks for a great article.